Interview with Jason Yip: In Software Engineering Respect for People is Trusting that People are Capable of Their Own Improvement

jason yip, thoughtworks principal on lean, kanban Today we speak with Jason Yip, a principal consultant with Thoughtworks. Jason helps companies interested in improve how they develop software. In this interview, you’ll learn the following:

After over a decade of helping organizations develop better software, why some things have changed and why some things remain the same.
In software engineering, why “meeting where people are” is an instantiation of Respect for People.
Why Visual Management in knowledge work an attempt to make visible the invisible.

Enjoy the interview and learn more about Jason immediately after. Enjoy.

Hi Jason. Can you tell me audience a little about yourself and your work?

I’m an Electrical Engineer by training but I’ve focused on software since realising that I preferred that to other activities. Over the last 13 years, I’ve had various roles related to software builds and development but these days what I mostly do is consult with companies who are interested in adopting Agile and Lean approaches to software delivery, IT operations, and product development.

As a principal consultant for Thoughtworks, you’ve spent a lot of time consulting with client companies. Over the years, have you seen a trend in what methods software development teams are adopting?

Some things haven’t changed, in the sense that some of the methods are becoming mainstream so it’s more of a continuation of a trend. “Some of the discussions I’m having about Agile today are very similar to the ones I’ve had back in the beginning. I notice this “more of the same” phenomenon mostly in the context of internal-facing software development.

There have been some changes in what technologies or technology approaches are being advocated and some have implications on how teams are structured, for example micro-services and DevOps.

The biggest trends that go beyond what we would have already advocated in the early days, and this is usually in the context of consumer-facing digital teams, are the twin forces of Continuous Delivery and what we might call Continuous Design, that is the application of design and customer-centric approaches in a rapid, iterative way.

Software development processes have undergone quite an overhaul in the last several years. On this blog, we interviewed Mary Poppendieck back in 2007 on Lean for Software. Can you help explain the difference between Agile, Kanban for Creative and Knowledge Work and Lean for Software?

I would say that Agile is an umbrella term that refers to a set of methods that share a few key assumptions about what makes software development more effective:

Closing the gap between problems and problem solvers

Taking smaller steps

Validating every step

Improving as you go

Lean for software development is partially a reinterpretation of Agile approaches through the lens of Lean principles and partially an extension of Agile approaches by borrowing from Lean insights and tools. Practically, I find people who identify with Lean tend to have a more holistic view of systems and processes, and are more likely to seek insight from other industries.

Kanban Software Development I’d say can be described in two ways: 1. an evolution of Agile towards a more continuous flow approach; 2. an incremental change approach to improving software delivery

Many companies talk about culture and sometimes cite the Respect for People pillar at Toyota. Can you share with us how Kanban might support that pillar in the Toyota Production System? Specifically, can you share an example of a company you’ve worked with that exemplified the principle of Respect for People within a software development context?

Kanban, specifically the incremental change approach, and further the idea of starting where you are, I think most clearly reflects Respect for People, both in terms of meeting people where they are as well as trusting that they are capable of their own improvement given the appropriate support and structures. But the most frequent example I see within the software development context is simply when the relationship between business owners and development teams shifts from one of giving and taking orders to one of collaboration. This means that it is not just a business person asking the development team to build something but also development team members proposing and/or improving ideas.

We know that visual management is a critical aspect of Lean. In software development, why is visual management especially important? Can you share a specific example of how software development teams have adopted visual management to help them in their work?

In software development, like any form of knowledge work, the work is essentially invisible, especially to non-technical stakeholders. It is very difficult for observers to realise that people are overburdened, that work is bottlenecked, or any other problem that is relatively easier to see if the work was physical. The most common example of visual management that you’ll see in Agile, Lean, Kanban teams is the card wall or kanban board, that is a physical representation of the workflow and the work using index cards. This is not the only type of visual management useful in software development teams though. There are also things like build lights that show whether recent integration and test runs worked, various charts showing progress and software quality, and broader issues like upcoming demand in the portfolio.

If you get down to the essence of visual management being used to make problems easier to see, I would also say that coding standards and syntax highlighting are a low-level example of visual management in the software development context akin to 5S in a physical factory.

We’ve seen software development go through phases: waterfall to agile to lean for software. And now, Kanban software development. Where do you see software development processes going next?

With Continuous Delivery, I think we’ve kind of reached the end of delivering more frequently. There are still going to be improvements in programming and technology approaches of course, but that’s not really a process thing. The next frontier in process I see will be less about delivering faster and more about delivering better products and services. That is all the activity happening with Lean Startup, Lean UX, Jobs-to-be-Done, etc. And then approaching that at scale.

What are some good methods or practices you’ve seen that can especially help distributed software teams?

In my opinion, the most critical practice for distributed software teams is to humanise the “other side”. It is too easy to forget that you are dealing with humans when you don’t see them, don’t hear them, don’t learn about the many “irrelevant” social details that remind you that you are working with real people. This means flying people around, always-on video conferencing, always-on chat rooms, etc. anything to ensure that communications are not just transactional.

Another important practice is structuring the work such that you reduce the amount of communication required across distributed boundaries. So oddly enough, I’m encouraging people to both increase interaction across distribution boundaries to humanise relationship AND encouraging people to structure the work such that the ongoing work does not require frequent interaction.

Thanks Jason. Appreciate you spending some time with us and in answering our questions.

jason yip, thoughtworks principal on lean, kanban

About Jason Yip

Jason has worked at ThoughtWorks for the past 13 years as a buildmaster, developer and currently as an organisational Agile / Lean / Kanban coach. He was one of the early committers on CruiseControl, the first Open Source Continuous Integration server, and is a prolific blogger and tweeter on Agile, Lean, and Kanban topics. Jason used to own the entire first results page on Google until some Hong Kong actor showed up.

Other Interviews you might enjoy:

Lean Leadership Interviews
Jeffrey Liker, NYT Best Selling Author, Professor, and Author of the Toyota Way	Jeffrey Liker, author of The Toyota Way, shares his thoughts on Toyota Kata, why sometimes root cause analysis isn't necessary, and what else he is excited to learn - even after 30 years of being a student of the Toyota Production System.
Eric Ries, Author of the Leanstartup	In this Podcast interview with Eric Ries, the author of The Leanstartup, we learn about the how he's applied Lean principles to starting companies. He also tells us about his consulting work with GE and how GE, worldwide, has applied Leanstartup throughout all its divisions and is considering Leanstartup as its new Operating System for the company.
Michael Balle, Author and Respected Lean Thinker	Michael Balle is a leading voice in Lean. In this interview, he shares with us his thoughts on Lean, tells us about his book, and spends a good amount of time discussing Respect for People.
Bob Emiliani, Author and Professor of Management	This interview with Dr. Bob Emiliani covers several aspects of Fake Lean versus Real Lean. There are real insights here from the "Lean Professor".
Laura Busche, Author of Lean Branding	Lean Branding is an application of Lean principles to branding. Read her provocative and practical approach to brand branding using the principles of Lean.
	Robert Martichenko is the Founder and CEO of LeanCor - a lean logistics and supply chain company. He is also the author of the book "A Lean Fulfillment Stream", published by the Lean Enterprise Institute. In this interview, he shares with us how Lean can be applied effectively beyond the 4 walls of manufacturing and outside the office, but infused into the entire supply chain.
Peter Armstrong, CEO of Leanpub (Lean Publishing)	Leanpub is an innovative approach to book publishing, where Peter believes that lean principles apply. He claims that writing a book is essentially a startup. And, the worst waste of all is writing a book that nobody wants. Read more to learn how to apply lean to the world of book publishing.
Keith Sparkjoy, Chief Culture Officer at Pluralsight	Keith Sparkjoy is the Culture Officer at Pluralsight, a Utah company that raised $135 Million in 2014 - an unprecedented amount of venture capital. And, here's the really cool part, as the culture officer, he's trying to transform his company using Dr. W. Edward Deming's teachings.
David J. Anderson, Author of many books on Agile, and inventor of Kanban for Creative and Knowledge work	David J. Anderson is the pioneer of the application of Kanban for creative knowledge work. His methodology and approach has had widespread acceptance and adoption and in this interview he shares results from companies that have tried his approach and other lessons learned.
Dimitar Karaivanov, CEO of Kanbanize	Dimitar Karaivanov is the CEO of Kanbanize, a visual kanban system designed for creative and knowledge workers. In this interview, we discuss the product and its many uses and how it embodies the principles of Lean.
Chris Hefley, CEO LeanKit	Chris Hefley is the CEO of LeanKit, a company that provides Virtual Kanban software for software development teams and knowledge workers. Reah his interview and learn what led to the development of LeanKit and the role Lean and the Toyota Production System plays.
Dan Markovitz, Noted consultant and expert on Lean for Office	In this interview with Dan Markovitz, we learn why he believes that everything is connected to the customer through the office. Based on this belief, he feels that Lean for Office makes the most sense. Read and learn how he's implemented Lean for the Office.
Jason Yip, Consultant to software development organzations	Jason Yip is a noted thoughtleader in software engineering. As a consultant, he helps software engineering organizations get better. In this interview, we learn the state of software engineering and the role of Agile, Lean for Software and Kanban.
Matthew May, NYT Best Selling author, consultant, and expert on Toyota Production System	Matthew May is an author and influential voice in Lean and also Design Thinking. He worked close to a decade at University of Toyota to help codify the Toyota Production System. In this interview, he shares with us his thoughts on his experience and what we can learn from it.
Mark Graban, Best Selling Author and expert on Lean for Healthcare	Lean Healthcare expert Mark Graban stops by and share his thoughts with Shmula readers on how Lean can be applied to arguably the most important industry in the world, healthcare.
Art Smalley, 15 Year Toyota Veteran and authority on Toyota Production System	Art Smalley is one of the most honest and influential voices in Lean. He was the first American to work in Japan's Kamigo plant, the plant where Taiichi Ohno began the Toyota Production System. He shares with us his thoughts on the Lean Movement and where it is going wrong.
Jeff Gothelf, Author of Lean UX, applying Lean for User Experience	Lean is being applied to every facet of business. Jeff Gothelf shares with us his thoughts on applying Lean for user experience, or Lean UX.
Cecil Dijoux, Expert Consultant on applying Lean for IT	Cecil Dijoux shares with us his thoughts on applying Lean to IT, definitely a must-read if you are in the information technology space.
Brent Wahba, Author and Expert on applying Lean for Sales and Marketing	Brent Wahba is a fellow at the Lean Enterprise Institute and shares with us his thoughts on Lean for Sales and Marketing.

Interview with Tony Hsieh, CEO of Zappos

Tony Hsieh, CEO of Zappos

In December 2008, I was fortunate enough to interview Tony Hsieh, CEO of Zappos. In a 5 part series of interviews, we discuss the Zappos strategy and Tony answers questions on why he chooses to focus on the customer and how he sees that as strategic.

Interviews with Customer Experience Experts
Mark Roenigk, COO of Rackspace and Board Member at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation	Rackspace Interview on Customer Experience: We interviewed Mark Roenigk on June 10, 2013. We discussed the Net Promoter Score and also topics around process improvement and how Rackspace places the customer first.
Shep Hyken, Author and expert on Customer Experience Strategy	Shep Hyken Customer Service Interview: We interviewed Shep Hyken on June 3, 2013 and discussed topics close to his heart - the customer. We focused our discussion on customer service and how focusing on the customer is strategic, not just tactical.
Annette Franz, Customer Experience Strategist and Survey Design Expert	Annette Franz Gleneicki on Customer Experience Strategy: Annette Gleneicki is a customer experience thought leader and Director at Confirmit, a voice of the customer platform. We discuss her thoughts on customer experience and the direction of the overall field.
Michel Falcon, Customer Experience Strategist and Author	Michel Falcon on Improving the Customer Experience: Michel Falcon is a former executive at 1800GOTJUNK and was the person who propelled 1800GOTJUNK to become a customer service powerhouse. In this interview, we discuss what he did and the lessons he learned.
Adam Ramshaw, Consultant to fortune 500 companies on Customer Experience	Adam Ramshaw, a customer experience consultant with Genroe, explains the relationship between continuous improvement and customer experience.

Leadership Interviews
Aza Raskin, Author, Startup Founder, and Son of Mac Inventor Jef Raskin	This is a multi-part Interview with Aza Raskin, on the Humane Interface. He discusses Agile Software Engineering. Then, in a later interview Aza Raskin discusses the "infinite scroll" approach to Google search results. In part 3, Aza Raskin shares his thoughts on Feature Bloat (aka, "Featuritis") and how to overcome it. In part 4, Aza Raskin describes the concept of Quasimodal Design and how to implement it in our software projects. Finally, Aza Raskin explains the role of Poka Yoke in the User Experience and why Lean should be applied to software engineering and knowledge work in general.
Mary Poppendieck, Author and codifier of Lean for Software Engineering	In this multi-part interview with Mary Poppendieck, the pre-eminent evangelist and teacher for Lean for Software, explains Lean Software Engineering. Then, Shmula.com readers were able to ask her questions of their own - read them here as Mary Poppendieck’s Answers to ALL Readers’ Questions, which includes questions such as Should Lean be Top-down or Bottom-up?. Then, another Interview with Mary Poppendieck. Then, Another interview with Mary Poppendieck where she explains Lean Software Engineering to a Lean Six Sigma audience. Plus, here's the Original Article to Ask Mary Poppendieck Anything. Finally, Mary considers the idea of "handoff" and how that's such a big problem in software projects - Mary Poppendieck on the Handoff and Waste
Gauri Nanda, Entrepreneur and inventor of Clocky	The inventor of Clocky, Gauri Nanda, shares with us her thoughts on innovation and the birth of Clocky
Gretchen Rubin, Author and evangelist of Happiness	In March 2010, I held a 2 part series of interview with Gretchen Rubin, the author of the Happiness Project. Her answers to reader's questions on a variety of topics centering on happiness will enlighten you. Gretchen Rubin, the author of The Happiness Project, shares with us here thoughts on how to be happy and what our part is in choosing to be happy. Gretchen Rubin, the author of The Happiness Project, answers questions on happiness. This is Part 1 of 2. And, In part 2 of 2, Gretchen Rubin, the author of the Happiness project answers more questions on how to be happy.
Spencer Rascoff, CEO of Zillow	Spencer Rascoff, the CEO of Zillow, shares with us his thoughts on this interview with Zillow back in June 2006.
Josh Coates, Entrepreneur and Startup Guy	Josh Coates, the founder of Mozy, shares with us jokes and the innovation behind Mozy.
Lloyd Hildebrand, Physician, Entrepreneur, and Enemy of Preventable Diseases that cause Blindness	Lloyd Hildebrand describes Diabetic Retinopathy and how his company, Inoveon, a Telemedicine Company, aims to eradicate diabetic retinopathy.
Ryan Kiskis, Gamer, Product Director, World of Warcraft	Ryan Kiskis of xFire, the developer of World of Warcraft, explains his thoughts on innovation.
Brian Hansen, Product Director, Kaboodle, the first pinterest	Kaboodle, was clearly the predecessor to Pinterest. We learn about Kaboodle and the innovation behind it.
Mark Jen, Product Manager, Guy who was fired from Google	Mark Jen, VP of Product Management at Plaxo, a Contact management company, the predecessor to Linkedin speaks to us about innovation and the business of business networking.
Samuel Adams, Community Director and expert on all things word of mouth	Bzzagent, the word of mouth marketing company, explains the power of the buzz.